Mark Cole:       Hey, podcast listeners. Mark Cole here and welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Podcast. This is the podcast that adds value to leaders who multiply value to others. If you can't see the excitement on my face, it's because either you're a listener, which welcome. We're glad you're here, or because I'm just not showing it enough. Because I'm telling you in my voice, you should hear the enthusiasm, the excitement that I have, because today, there are a couple of things that are exciting to me that I am confident will be exciting to you too. First off, one week from today, we released the 25th edition, the 25th anniversary of John's most popular book, The 21 Laws of Leadership. Now, The 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership, this book has sold more than 3.5 million copies worldwide. It's impacted countless growing leaders over the past 25 years, including me and perhaps you as well.

So to celebrate this release, we're beginning a series on one of the most important laws of leadership from this book. It's law number 10, the law of connection. The law of connection says that you must touch a heart before you ask for a hand. This is a law about relationships and adding value to the people you serve. So in this lesson, John is going to teach four levels of relationships that will help you connect to those around you and lead them better. Okay. Are you ready for the second exciting thing? Because today, joining me as my co-host is Becky Bursell. Now you probably already know Becky, but let me tell those of you that don't. One, she's our executive vice president of personal growth solutions here at Maxwell Leadership. Becky's also on the Forbes Coaching Council. She's the founder of the Greatest Version of You.

She's a public speaker, she's a business coach, but more importantly, she is my friend and you will see that she is your friend too. I'm so excited for you to get to meet Becky, to connect with her on this podcast. It will be a great conversation. But first things first, if you would like to download the free bonus resource that we offer each week, it's a fill-in-the-blank PDF that accompanies John's lesson. You can go to Maxwellpodcast.com/connection and click the bonus resource button. That's it. For now, sit back, lean in, grab a pen and paper, capture some notes because here is John Maxwell.

John Maxwell:  If you and I are going to be successful, we have to be able to get along with people. In fact, when I did the 21 Laws of Leadership, one of the things I shared in this area is people won't go along with you if they can't get along with you. You just have to be able to connect relationally with them. One of the four components to success is relationships. What I really believe is it's the first step to success. Now there are four levels of relationships. Number one is what I call surface relationships. We all have these by the way. In fact, hopefully we have all four levels. Let me give you some characteristics of surface relationships. One is the most common of all relationships. It's the one we have the most with people. It's not only the most common of all relationships. It's the foundation of all relationships.

It's how relationships start. That's why it's the first one I want to talk about. There is no strong commitment from either person. I don't have a strong commitment to you and you don't have a strong commitment to me. So there's no strong commitment from either person. And finally, there can be a passive approach to this relationship. In other words, you don't initiate anything. You don't have to go out of your way for this. A classic example of a surface relationship is if you go to the same store and you go up to the checkout place, her name's Sally and, "Hi, Sally, how you doing? "I'm fine, John." How're you doing?" They're checking out and, "Have a good day," and you got your groceries and you're on your way. So it's a service relationship. Okay?

The second level of relationship is what I call structured relationships. And let me explain that. When a relationship is ready to go to another level, it's usually because it's been structured to do so. Three characteristics about the structured relationships. These relationships take place at a specific time each week. Basically what I'm saying is structured relationships periodically, there are times when you enter into these. They are built on routine encounters. The very fact that they're structured means you keep coming back to see this person or to be with this person. And usually structured relationships happen around a common interest or activity. Let me explain. When you're a parent, maybe it was taking your kid to ball games and what you're setting the bleachers with other parents. In other words, the common interest was your kid was playing ball while you're at that, you were sitting beside people and getting to know them and the game brought you back together.

The relationship didn't bring you back together. There was structure brought you back together. In fact, it's interesting when Margaret and I moved to Atlanta because we lived in San Diego when our children grew up, one of the things that Margaret and I both missed was the fact that we were not in a routine or structure to develop relationships with people because all of a sudden, our children were growing. So we didn't need to go do that and there was not something that would cause us to come back and see people often enough to really to start developing relationships. So that's level number two, structured relationships. The third level is what I call secure relationships. The best way to explain that is when a structured relationship becomes healthy and enjoyable, the relationship then moves to a new level, and this becomes a secure relationship. And there are five characteristics there.

Number one, the people desire to spend more time together. The main difference between this relationship and the structured, the structure in number two brings you together. The baseball game brought you together, not the relationship. Now in this one, the people desire to spend more time together. Now you're coming together for relationship purposes, not because your kids played on the same ball team. Two, mutual sharing takes place. Begins to be two sided. Next, thirdly, trust begins to form. There's a certain element of trust that begins to take place in this. It's in a secure relationship that friendship can be tested. There's all of a sudden a testing of the friendship. And what I mean by that is not in the wrong way, but when a person will begin to do things that are out of the ordinary for you. In biblical terms, go to the second mile, turn the other cheek. When all of a sudden you see them doing things beyond what would be natural, now you're beginning to test that friendship.

And one more thing, and that is there is a comfort level that is established at this level. You're very comfortable with this person. This is where personal friendships develop. You're comfortable enough to because you're secure enough that you'll laugh at yourself. You'll tell the good, but you also tell the bad. Now there's one more level of relationships. You start with the surface and then you go to structured and secure and the fourth area is what I call solid relationships. This is the highest of all relationships. It's out of a solid relationship that a long term relationship will develop, and you have this kind of relationship, it's not just for a season. Another characteristic of a solid relationship is complete trust and confidentiality exist. You can really talk from your heart and it'll be kept in confidence and you are free to talk, because there's a trust level there. And finally, there's a desire to serve and give to others.

At this relationship, you become as interested in giving to them as you do from getting from them. Let me read something to note in your notes. All relationships will be tested. In fact, the level of relationship usually moves through a period of transition when a test occurs. The interesting opposite observation I have made personally and pastorally about relationships is that the level of the relationship will be determined by the way those involved respond to conflict. I really believe that. The level of the relationship will be determined by the way that those involved respond to the conflict. Let me explain. When a conflict is not dealt with properly, the relationship can regress to a previous level. When a conflict occurs and the response is in a right manner, then the relationship can progress to a higher level. So it's the response to conflict that usually determines that the relationship gets better or if it begins to disintegrate.

Mark Cole:       Hey, welcome back. If you're viewing today, we're so glad that you are joining us by video and you're going to get to meet Becky if you are listening in. I am ecstatic because today, I am able to connect with my co-host, who really is a relational leader. In fact, if Becky and I could give you one standout statement today, we try to do that every time, it's this. People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And Becky, we get to do this. We get to apply John's lessons on a day to day basis. I'm glad today that we get to do that on the podcast. So welcome, but more importantly, thanks for modeling this law of connection.

Becky Bursell:   Well, thank you. I'm excited to be here. I mean, I've watched every podcast episode, the way everybody at home has as well. Excited to be on YouTube now, as well as we launch. But with John's book being revised and The 21 laws is so special to me, because it was the first book I picked up from John. It's how I knew him. And as you and everybody else watching, you have one book of John's and you feel like you're best friends. here I am years later actually having John in our life and a Mark Cole in our life and revising this book. It's quite a moment for me.

Mark Cole:       it's fun as John was talking today about the four levels of relationship. I've said this often, Becky. I'm sure you've heard it and I'm sure you feel the same way in getting to help carry John's legacy forward and building just really this clear communication approach to growth in leadership. I am sitting here today because of the relationships. Let's call it friendships-

Becky Bursell:   Yeah, absolutely.

Mark Cole:       ... because that's how John did it. But I'm sitting here today because of the relationships I have made along the way. I stand today on Linda Edgar's shoulders. She's been with John for 33 plus years. She knew me and my name before John Maxwell did, and she began to share that with John and I think about multiple conversations you and I had in talking about how to grow together, all started with relationships with John-

Becky Bursell:   It did.

Mark Cole:       ... many years before. That's how we do everything, right?

Becky Bursell:   It is. I really appreciate that John breaks down being able to categorize those relationships because I think a lot of people, including myself, at one point, we struggled with relationships coming and going from our life as if we did something wrong or as if they did something wrong, but I was so relieved when he said you were really only going to have five or six secure relationships in your life because I thought, "Oh thank goodness," because that let me off the hook a little bit. I was worried about that. But I think all of us can relate to that. It comes with seasons and those relationships do as well. But being able to connect with people is a gift. That it's not something that most people are just gifted with.

It's something you intentionally have to do. I mean, I remember I, and just like you, we have kids that play sports and we follow them around and our lives become their lives and their lives become ours and our schedules, and I would purposely make an effort to get to know the parents of these kids so that there was always a family or a tribe, which we're all longing for. But it was my way of forcing myself to really make connections to where anything you practice, anything you prepare for, you'll get better with over time.

Mark Cole:       You mentioned that standout statement for you, that secure relationships, you only got five or six. I loved right there at the end where he said that any relationship that is significant, we're talking about the law of connection, the four levels of deep relationship, he said they're going to have seasons or time periods, I think is how John said it, of going through each of this surface, structured, secure, solid. And I wonder for me and podcast listers, perhaps this applies to you, but I wonder how many relationships that I did not give a chance to because they felt stuck in one of these four levels. I'm not a surface guy, but I love surface things. I love to have a good time, but I have a better time when I know there's a little bit more depth to that relationship or potential depth, and then yet I also think sometimes I get so intense in relationships that I don't enjoy or I don't allow others around me to enjoy that surface part of it because I'm just so intense.

Becky Bursell:   Yeah. It's interesting because even surface, I think today, as opposed to even 20 years ago, because John even makes a reference at the grocery store, those kind of things. To me, today, the perfect example of a surface relationship is social media. I mean, how many times do you have friends or they follow you and they think they know you and you think you know them and I mean you actually someday meet them in person and you feel like you know each other, but it really is surface because how do you truly know someone through social media? It was an experience or they follow you whether it's because they like what the content or they just find you entertaining or whatever it is. But to me today, that's probably a really great example of a surface relationship.

Mark Cole:       Yeah. The other thing that really struck me as John was talking is this idea of structured relationships. Don't we all have this opinion that relationships should just kind of be? We should let it morph. It should just be natural or organic. And yet John gives us permission to be structured in our relationships. One of the coolest things... You've been in settings like this as I have. One of the greatest things of John, in my opinion, is how when he's sitting down at dinner with someone or when he's preparing for dinner with someone, he sits down and now in his phone, it used to be a little notepad, he would sit down and think of the questions that would inspire relationship to develop around that table.

Becky Bursell:   Think of the intention. I mean, again, John is the epitome of this. He teaches us just by example all the time, but how many times do we just sit down on a plane, at dinner next to someone and we just want to internalize? We just want to be in our own head and to have that intentionality that you are going to create that conversation. Who does that? Oh, wait, we're supposed to do that.

Mark Cole:       I had a leader one time, phenomenal leader, just incredible at certain things, but struggled with the relationship side of things at times. It's like John Maxwell told on his friend, Dan Ryland, who's a dear friend of mine, a listener to this podcast, a great author, if you have not read Dan Ryland, but he said one time Dan, as his executive pastor way back when he was in San Diego, Dan come walking in one day and walked right past everybody, didn't say hello to anybody, didn't do anything, and John just watched him go do that, and he went in his office and said, "Dan, you just passed all the people." And Dan said, "I know, John. I just had so much work to do. I had to get a lot of things done today." He said, "Dan, you just passed the people." I thought about that because I was working with a leader one time and I said, "Hey, I need you to walk slowly through the crowd. I need you to spend time with the people."

All the buzzword that you've heard John say and he goes, "Okay, I got it. I got it." I'll never forget one week later, I got all of these texts. I was traveling a lot then as well and I got all these texts that said, "Man, you're not going to believe it. This leader was incredible. Came by today, really acted interested in my weekend. It's a new day with this leader." The second week, "You're not going to believe this. The same exact thing. It's almost like a brand new person." The third week, I got the text. Said, "Hey, you might want to tell this leader to pick a different time of the day, because now I'm starting to feel like a calendar schedule rather than anything."

Becky Bursell:   Exactly.

Mark Cole:       But the point is this, I believe that great leaders, great relational leaders are structured in their relationship. They're incredibly intentional. You would never know the amount of intentionality John puts into those dinner conversations because while it's very structured, he doesn't lose the relational component of it.

Becky Bursell:   Yeah. And I think he's practiced that so much that it's not even practiced anymore. I mean, his intentionality has become a part of his DNA and isn't that where we're all trying to get to? I feel like as we do that, it's interesting how John talks in this particular lesson, even about how leadership is all about the people. It's not about you, and it's very easy to forget those things sometimes. For me, the statement that I have to remind myself is if the people are the why, sometimes we have to be careful that we make the reason why we do things. We also make it the reason why not to do things. Meaning let's say I want to build a business because I want it to be able to impact my family and I want to give them more options, but then every time they have a book fair sale, I have to be there or I'm not willing to make the sacrifices.

So I make the reason why I do something. Sometimes that's the excuse why not to do something. Because I can't take time away from my child in order to go build this business, but then I need, I want them to be able to someday pick the college they want to go to, not the one I can afford to go to. So there is a give and take there and I think in leadership, we do that same thing with people. We say they are the reason why, but then sometimes we bypass it because we're making it the reason why not too.

Mark Cole:       Yeah. When you go to this next point of secure relationship, so we talked about surface. We get caught up in this, "Man, this is not going anywhere." And we don't cultivate it to get deeper and we lose perhaps could be a very long-term relationship. But then we go to this structured and we get really intentional with it. Well, now John's talking about these secure relationships and you've already mentioned that there's five or six maybe in your life span. But how incredible is it when you're around that person that just secures you in that relationship?

Becky Bursell:   There's nothing better.

Mark Cole:       In work life, especially those of us that are leading teams and are part of big teams, it becomes a dog eat dog or it becomes a corporate ladder to where we're trying to climb it faster than anybody else. We're trying to compete with people rather than complete people. All the buzzwords and yet in these secure relationships that John is teaching, these very few, there's nothing better than feeling secure in a relationship, especially even a work relationship. "Hey, we've got this. We're going to make it happen."

Becky Bursell:   I agree. I've also found moving from a secure relationship to a solid relationship, there's a difference there because secure, we usually surround ourselves with people that like the same things or maybe they're of the same faith or they have the same politics or it's comfortable and it feels safe as well. I think where you can move secure to solid is you're not just moving with people that are for you or you fight the same fight. Sometimes it's the opposite. So there's an intention around that comfort zone and you and I have talked a lot about that comfort zone because we've made a lot of changes in our lives to push us out of that comfort zone whether we wanted to or not. It took us that way.

But when you're okay and can feel a safe space with people that you don't even agree with, to me, that is probably the most solid of all those relationships where you can disagree about politics. You can have different faith systems, but how you value people, how you conduct yourself and then being okay with disagreeing, I can't think of a more solid relationship. Let alone a marriage. I mean, show me a marriage where they agree on everything and I'll be like, "You guys live in make believe land."

Mark Cole:       Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

Becky Bursell:   And that sounds amazing, but I don't think it really exists.

Mark Cole:       That's exactly right. Get your head out of the clouds.

Becky Bursell:   Yes.

Mark Cole:       Get your head out of the sand.

Becky Bursell:   Stop lying to yourself.

Mark Cole:       Yes. I love it when John talks about when he wrote the book, Failing Forward and he was going on a 10-day cruise to see the fjords of Norway.

Becky Bursell:   Fjords.

Mark Cole:       The fjords of Norway. And he goes, "Right before we started going, I realized it was 10 days and it only took God seven to create the entire earth. We're taking 10 to view the fjords of Norway." But then he makes this funny statement that I laugh every time and he says, "Morgan and I talked and we went on the 10-day fjord [inaudible 00:22:40]."

Becky Bursell:   Right. That was the discussion.

Mark Cole:       He said, "We had a discussion, but she won." And then he follows up and says, "Anybody that doesn't believe in compromise has not been married for very long."

Becky Bursell:   It's true.

Mark Cole:       So let's go now to this last segment, which is solid relationships. John made a couple of points here where a long-term relationship begins to develop, complete trust and confidentiality exist. I know this is where all of us want to get to. And can we get to it in a work environment or is that just reserved for solid relationships at a very personal level? I just believe and am experiencing that solid relationships can work in the workplace as well.

Becky Bursell:   Yeah. I mean, I think you and I are a perfect example of that. I mean, obviously some of our experiences allow us to connect to that, but I've shared things with you that I've shared with maybe two other people in my life and I know we've done the same thing. So there's definitely a common connection there. But I think the basis of that are... Because it's really easy for us to want to surround ourselves with people that just cheer for us all the time, agree with us all the time, but those that challenge you, but do it in a respectful way, the feeling of growing with people, as opposed to agreeing with people is such a better feeling in the long term and the long run. That's really where you can put those relationships. I would say, and you included, it's not just the people that cheer for you the loudest, it's also the ones that can laugh the loudest with you at yourself at-

Mark Cole:       That's right.

Becky Bursell:   ... I mean, mistakes that would mortify the public to know that we've made, and we can laugh with each other about them because there's growth in that. There's also a safe space in that. We've understood it. We've experienced it and I hope everyone has experienced that. What's really hard is knowing that there are people that haven't. So giving them the tools and giving them the parameters of what that looks like, John just does a beautiful job in which he always does. He takes the complicated. He makes it simple. We can all digest it. But the difference is hearing all of these things and what I hope the podcast listeners and our Maxwell Leadership family understand is there's such a difference in getting information and applying it to, "Man, my husband needs to hear this man. My sister needs to hear this. My best friend needs to hear this."

When you get this level of just principles and content, the best thing you can do is it always applies to you and then that radiates throughout you. For me, that's been a, an ongoing process. There's still moments that I still want to fix everybody around me realizing, "Oh, no, that means I need to fix myself even more."

Mark Cole:       That's exactly right.

Becky Bursell:   That's exactly where it goes back to.

Mark Cole:       Well, and I'll close here, but let me say this. When you talk about... You made a great statement there that I want to expand on just a moment here. You said it's really important that we determine to grow with people rather than agree with people when we're talking about the solid relationship piece. John said this. He said this in the teaching today. "When conflict is handled incorrectly, the relationship will digress. It will go back. But when conflict is handled appropriately and correctly, the relationship will always-

Becky Bursell:   Always.

Mark Cole:       ... go to the next level." I thought, "How true is that?" One of the coolest things, Becky, I'll never forget this. When we were trying to figure out how do we structure a way for us to go build something, to build John's legacy together, and you said, "Mark, let me tell you this. When you have a challenge, bring it to me because that's when I will respect you the most."

Becky Bursell:   Absolutely.

Mark Cole:       You've lived up to that. When there is something that we don't agree on and we don't always agree, when there's something we don't agree on and I bring that with caring candor, like we've talked about many times on this podcast, when I bring that in a way, it always strengthens-

Becky Bursell:   It does.

Mark Cole:       ... our relationship. It always takes us to that solid place. I wish everybody could understand that-

Becky Bursell:   Me too.

Mark Cole:       ... because the people that can't handle conflict, they think the relationship is unstable in moments of conflict, rather than realize the significance.

Becky Bursell:   But you realize what that says subconsciously. It says, "I don't trust your maturity level to handle me bringing you this." So for me, when you bring that to me, all it does is reaffirm your belief in who I am, what I can handle. It's actually a confidence builder instead of the same. So emotionally getting to a place where someone trusts you enough to bring that to you, even if at first, it stings. Knowing that someone respects you enough to bring you some of the biggest problems in their life or the biggest conflicts or the biggest disagreements, you really have to take that as a compliment that someone recognizes what you are capable of.

Mark Cole:       Boy, that's so true. It reminds me I was looking at... If you're watching the video, you saw me. I'm looking through. There's a helpful quote here from John O'Donohue. He says, "Real friendship or love is not manufactured or achieved by an act of will or intention. Friendship is always an act of recognition." I believe we're truly recognized when we can with security, give a point of view that not everybody else in the room is sharing. It's too many times to where we're not really recognized because we're trying to fit in. We're trying not to become chaotic in our opinion, or disruptive in a leadership team-

Becky Bursell:   Absolutely.

Mark Cole:       ... and yet what John O'Donohue is saying is friendship is always an act of recognition. That's why I really want to challenge you. This is part one of part two of the law of connection. I want to challenge you in this book that's coming out, this redo book, this 25th edition. We have shaved it down. We have really put in some relevant examples in this new book, and I'm going to challenge you. You don't have to buy the new one. You're going to like it if you do. I promise you because it's better.

Becky Bursell:   No, you have to buy the new one.

Mark Cole:       Becky says you have to buy it.

Becky Bursell:   You have to.

Mark Cole:       What I would tell you is what you do have to do is you need to pick this book back up. It's time to reestablish in our life, not only the law of connection, and we're trying to do that in this podcast and next week, but it's important that you establish the foundation of what leadership looks like. We're living in a world right now, gang. Becky, you see it. I see it. We work with people all the time. We're living in a world to where it is becoming increasingly hard to have an opinion.

Becky Bursell:   It is.

Mark Cole:       Everybody wants to frown on you if you have an opinion about mask or not mask, if you have an opinion about whether you should get vaccinated or not. I mean, think about the struggles of the last two years, and I'm just going to tell you that there is a way to connect with people and have great relationships with them even if you don't share the same point of view. Where the state of leadership has left us with today is if we don't agree, we go to the other side of the aisle or this side of the aisle. If we don't agree, we go find habitats that have people that just agree with us. And the world is losing its diversity if we don't learn to have opinions and have thoughts and still honor people with different various opinions and thoughts along the way.

Becky Bursell:   We've never seen a time like this. I can remember growing up and the whole movement was to remove labels and yet in that process, we've done the exact opposite, which again, has just categorized all of us to find differences and instead of finding ways to connect. The 21 Laws, if nothing else, it does not matter where you are in your leadership journey. If you're that 24 year old that really can't define leadership yet and you've never seen it modeled well yet, or you're the 55-year old CEO or own multiple companies and yet you're realizing, "Man, I really need to go back and redefine what that foundation is supposed to look like," because there are a lot of voices that are very willing to tell you what to think today. There are very few that are going to teach you how to think.

Mark Cole:       That's right.

Becky Bursell:   How to lead. How to create that for yourself, but give you those foundational principles that make you become the leader you would want to follow, and this particularly revised version of The 21 Laws is mind blowing. It will do exactly that for you. Have a guide, have a map of values and principles because in a world where it's hard to know who to trust, trust yourself by letting these values resonate with who you are and who you want to be.

Mark Cole:       In the show notes, podcast listeners, podcast viewers, we'll put in a link to pick this book up. We will give you a 15% discount. In fact, Jake, we'll set that up in the show notes. Go to the link in the show notes, use the code 'podcast', and we will give you that. Also, we'll put in there, the digital product that we've created with this. It is incredible. Maybe we'll even talk a little bit more about that next week. Now, here's what I want to challenge you to do. One, in the show notes, we're going to give you another podcast that I think is extremely relevant to today's podcast. It's called The Communication Shift: Directing to Connecting. We did a podcast on that some time ago and we're going to make that available to you in the show notes as well. I have a request of you.

I want you to pass this podcast along. I was recently with some people in Arkansas and the Nashville. I had this insane traveling week and literally everywhere I landed, someone picked up, caught me and said, "Hey, thanks for the podcast and even more importantly, thank you for helping me lead my team because the podcast is a resource for me to impact the next generation or my team or my family." I want to challenge you today. If you've enjoyed this podcast and I hope you have, I hope you'll pass it along. I hope you'll subscribe. Get an email in your inbox every single week and let us know how you're doing. In fact, I want to read a listener comment and question. Now, I feel compelled to read this comment because the person identifies themself as The Butcher. So when The Butcher sends you something, you want to share-

Becky Bursell:   You better read it.

Mark Cole:       ... what The Butcher has to say just in case The Butcher knows my address. So The Butcher listened to the podcast, Change Your Thinking, Change Your Life. I remember that podcast so well. He said, "Mark, that section where you were talking about a change in your outlook was deep for me, my friend. You have no idea how applicable that is to me." The Butcher said, "I was just promoted to a leadership role," in his job and immediately began dealing with the imposter syndrome. I remember that. He said, "That compounded the challenges that some of the older teammates had in not believing I was up for the challenge. This teaching helped me see the issue wasn't them. It's me. I had bought into those lies and began to fear them rather than trusting God." Thank you, The Butcher. Thank you, Becky. I'll see you again next week. For all of you listening, thank you so much for making this-