Mark Cole:

Hey, welcome back to the Maxwell Leadership Podcast. This is the podcast that adds value to leaders who multiply value to others. My name is Mark Cole. I'm the CEO of Maxwell Leadership, and I have to say I'm extremely honored. In fact, I'm excited that you're joining us today, and this is why. I get to do podcast every week. I get to meet with you. John comes in, John brings friends, but today you are in for a great surprise. See, it's leaders like you who help us make an impact in our world. So it's my joy each and every week to have you learn with us, grow with us so that the world becomes better. This week, we have an exciting first time guest with us on the podcast. Now, her name is not unfamiliar to you because I've quoted her often. In fact, I've quoted her so often with one of my favorite leadership questions.

And it's this, what is it like to be on the other side of me? I'll never forget when Liz Wiseman was at an event with myself and John Maxwell and she inspired us with this question. John and I, right after that question was inspired in us, got on a plane with me and we talked about you, Liz, and that question all the way to Dubai. That question alone has changed me to be more self-aware in my leadership. And as you know, John Maxwell loves to be challenged to be more self-aware. So I'm excited to bring to you today, Liz Wiseman. But Liz, I've got to tell you before I go any further, I just got off the phone with John right before we went live here in the studio and he says, you tell Liz Wiseman. Well, he said, Mark, let me tell you first I'm jealous.

I should be doing this interview, not you. And he said, Number two, you tell Liz Wiseman that I remain the president of her fan club. So Liz, welcome. We're so glad you're here. Your book Multipliers was so impacting, but today we're going to talk about Impact Players. And for all you watching, this is the book I will go ahead and tell you you need to already do. You need to already order. Liz, you're the CEO of the Wiseman Group, where you help people and transform their organization. You help them maximize impact and multiply intelligence. I can't wait for Impact Players. But first, Liz, welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Podcast.

Liz Wiseman:

Oh, Mark, I'm so delighted to be joining this conversation. Thank you for having me. And who doesn't want to have John Maxwell as the president of their fan club? That's not a job I'm ever going to let him resign from.

Mark Cole:

Well, and I don't think you could because we've all been so impacted by your work. Now in the show notes, we're going to tell you how to get to Liz and her organization. I've just fallen in love with Liz and Larry, her husband. You can go to the wisemangroup.com, the wisemangroup.com, and you can find more out about Liz and her organization. But Liz, I do. I mean the purpose that John and I pursued you and said, Liz, please come help us, was with this book right here. This book, The Impact Players, now, in Full disclosure podcast family. I'm a little greedy today cause I'm right in the middle of trying to determine the Impact Players and the non-impact players on my team. And so Liz, this is more than an interview. I'm in a study session with you, and so I'm going to try not to be selfish, But seriously, before we dive too deep in the book, can you tell our listeners what an impact player is and what that impact player can bring to your organization?

Liz Wiseman:

Well, an impact player is a concept I borrowed from sports. And we all know who the impact players are of the sporting world. They're the people who get put into the game, in the moments that matter, they're the people you hand the ball to and you know they're going to run with it. And they're going to get not to the finish line. They're going to get across the finish line. And they're the people who make these standout contributions, not just for themselves but for the team. And they're the kind of people that when they're on the team, the team plays better, the team wins more, the franchise grows, and there are Impact Players in the workplace. And they're the kinds of people that we entrust with the most important responsibilities. They're the people who don't just hold a position in the organization, they're not position holders, they're difference makers.

Mark Cole:

Wow. Okay. So help me then. What are the characteristics that set an impact player apart from an everyday contributor or a high performer?

Liz Wiseman:

Well, let me start, I guess with how we figured it out. I talked to 170 managers and asked them all in top employers to identify two different contributors. Someone who I came to call an ordinary contributor versus an impact player that they had led. And when we looked at all of the differences between how they think and how they work, what we found is that these ordinary contributors were stellar. Stellar people who did their job. They took ownership, took responsibility, they followed direction, they were focused, they carried their weight on teams, but they were stellar in ordinary times. But when things got messy, chaotic, uncertain, their way of working fell short. And these are the situations that the impact players thought about handled differently. All the messy bits like when problems were messy, problems without owners, while other people are doing their job, the impact player is doing the job that needs to be done.

Their job description is a starting point. It's a suggestion, like a base camp, but they're working outside of that limitation. They're going after those messy problems. The second difference is what they do when roles are unclear, clearly people are collaborating, but you can't figure out who's in charge or that all too often situation where you're in a meeting and you're like, who's the boss of this meeting? Who's going to take charge? Who's going to lead us through this? While other people are waiting for direction, waiting for role clarification, waiting for somebody to appoint them as the leader, waiting for somebody to send an email note out saying, okay, everyone, Mark is the boss here. The impact players are just stepping into these leadership voids and vacuums when a group needs a leader, when a meeting needs a leader, when an initiative needs someone to lead it, they raise their hand, they volunteer, and they lead comfortably without authority.

They're the kind of people who would say, in one of these leaderless meetings, would it be helpful if I guide us through this? But they're not the kind that takes charge and has to stay in charge, like has to be in charge of everything. They're people who can volunteer to lead, lead well, lead aggressively. But then when that service is over, they follow others with the same energy and assertiveness with which they took the lead. They follow as gracefully as they lead. When it comes to the unforeseen problems and obstacles of the work world where things just drop in unannounced. Other people take ownership. But then when things get rocky and rough and the boulders in our way are big, they escalate up. Which is so often what organizations incent people to do, teach people to do. In these situations, the impact players, they just hold on to ownership longer.

They finish, they get things across the finish line and they finish stronger because they've held on through the challenge. The fourth difference is how they handle the moving targets, where the environment's changing, the situation's changing, needs are changing. While other people stick to what they know like, hey, this is the budget you gave me. This was the objective you gave me at the beginning of the quarter, they're fixated. The impact players are adjusting, they're adapting. They're waking up each morning thinking, well, the world has probably changed, and how do I need to change with it? They're letting go of the status quo. And the last big difference we found is how they deal with just the unrelenting demands of the modern workplace where it just seems like the workload is bigger than we can humanly get our arms around. And in these situations, the ordinary contributor tends to look to others for relief.

They end up adding to the burden that already overstressed leaders feel. And in these situations when the burden feels heavy, the Impact Players make work light. They just lighten the load for everyone. And it's not that they go and do other people's work for them, that's not particularly scalable. It's that they're easy to work with. And Mark, don't we all know colleagues that are just easy to work with, low maintenance, a delight, fun lighthearted, they laugh their way through difficult work. And so hard work doesn't feel particularly hard. There's no phantom workload working with these folks.

Mark Cole:

So I'm sort of intrigued and John Maxwell and I got to spend time with you and Larry, your husband in Nashville talking about this book. And John had recently read the book. And then it was a surprise that we were going to get to see you for a couple of hours in Nashville. It's just one of these moments to where I watched two impact players, you and John Maxwell kind of talk about how this book helped you identify how to turn contributors into impact players, how to free up impact players to be impacting. And I was in the middle of the book at the time and I find myself, I'm going for just a moment for you podcast listeners, because you know my story, I've been with John for 22 years and I started as an entry level telesales representative. Now the CEO, now owner with John.

That journey came because I was an impact player. I just knew that if there was a job to do, I would do it. What I have found, podcast listeners, podcast viewers, here's what I found. If you are a leader over players on your team, you need to know the difference between an impact player and a contributor. You need to know the contributor that can become an impact player. And those that's just going to stay a contributor on your team because you could be frustrating people on your team by seeing them differently.

And when I read this book as a CEO of a leader of hundreds of people on our team, I realized a way to design, define, and inspire people on my team to be an impact player or to appreciate the impact player. But if you're a podcast listener, podcast viewer, and you're just on the team like I've been the last 22 years in John's world, this book is going to help how to be an impact player, how to become an impact player. And so Liz, I had to just stop for a moment and say, those of you that know 10 minutes in, this book is for both of you, people that want to be an impact player and people that are trying to lead contributors and impact players at the same time. So Liz, let me ask you this. What are the obstacles or the mindsets that stand in the way of contributors becoming that impact player?

Liz Wiseman:

Well, let me tell you what it's not. It's not talent, it's not capability, it's not intelligence, and it's not hard work. Part of the research is I neutralized those variables. In a room full of equally smart, capable, hardworking people. Why are some people breaking through and making a difference and delivering extraordinary value? And some people are turning through the motion. So it's not about, Oh, I have to work harder or I have to be smarter. I hate any environment where I need more IQ points because I'm like, man, I'm working every IQ point I got at this point. If someone could lend me a few, I'll take them. But I don't know how to instantly get smarter. But it really comes down to it's a more courageous way of working. And I think what stands in the way of working this way are a few things that our own internal headset, it's about going out and taking charge of situations that you don't feel like you're in charge of.

And so if you have a mental model that says other people are in charge of me rather than me being in charge of my circumstances and situations, you're going to struggle to do this. If you have a mental model that says, well, to lead I have to be a boss. Somebody has to knight me for me to go out and do something nobly, I'm willing to do it, but I'm waiting. You're going to struggle to do this. But if you've got the mindset that says, well, leadership isn't a position in an org chart, it's an attitude. It's not a job, it's a role. And it's not something that you are forever. It's something you do in a moment in time. You lead because the situation requires leadership. If you have that mental model, this is going to be easy. But I think the things that block people are a willingness to take charge in ambiguous situations.

I think fear can block people. What we found is the impact players kind of in short, if I had to really sum up what you're looking for when you're trying to identify impact players is you're looking for people who move toward ambiguity rather than away from it, sort of in the burning building metaphor, we're always fascinated by the people who go toward the burning building because there's a job that needs to be done and they're going to go save a dog or a person or open a locked door versus those who are running away.

The impact player moves toward ambiguity, uncertainty, and chaos. The way that, you live right there on a beach is the way a surfer dives into the wave rather than moves away from the wave or rather than me who's sees a big wave and tends to back up. And so if someone's operating with a headset that says, if it's uncertain that's dangerous and I need to get away from dangerous situations, they're going to struggle. Now, some of us kind of already have this mindset of I'm going to run toward danger. If there's a need, I'm going to run toward it. But man, is there so much that a leader of an organization, a CEO can do to help people get comfortable moving toward uncertainty rather than back away from it.

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Mark Cole:

That one point in the book rocked my mind because I had a couple leaders that both were equally talented, both equally gifted with experience. I mean, they had done some great things, but one was really navigating this season of ambiguity, the season of uncertainty much differently than the other person. And Liz, when I read that, I went, That's it. One is a perpetual impact player no matter where you put them. She was absolutely incredible. And when I realized that and started calling her an impact player, here's what it did. It created the permission needed by the other person that ambiguity is okay. And it made two impact players out of one, just simply because I gave them language there. That was a game changer for me. Let me move on. I'm telling you, I'm going to get Greek. Go ahead.

Liz Wiseman:

Oh, so you just used, I think the big word, so if I had to pick one word to describe what leaders need to do to call up impact players to replicate this mentality across our organization is permission. So what you said, and sometimes the language and the framework is all the permission people need. Oh, so you want me to do the job that's needed rather than just my job. Great. I'm there. But the impact player way of working, it's this rangy way of working. It's like saying, I don't need to be little like you hired me because you want me to play big. You want me to take the lead, you want me to be impactful. And so it's going after things that need attention that haven't necessarily been called to your attention yet. And because it's rangy and it's kind of risky and courageous behavior, what managers can do if they want more of it, is to give permission.

One of my hopes for this book is that managers, when they hire people into the organization, they say, we want you to be an impact player here. We want you to make a difference. We want you to play big. If you see something, say something. If you see a need, an ambient problem that needs someone to take charge, go for it. I think one of the most powerful things we can do as a leader is to permit the kind of behavior we want. Because nobody really wants a team of position holders. We want these impact players, but have we permitted people to act that way?

Mark Cole:

So let's switch gears just a moment. Same subject, but we're dealing in an environment where the leaders not read your book. They don't know that they should celebrate Impact Players. So we have an impact player. How does an impact player, a leader step up and assume leadership roles when they're needed? They may not be promoted, but they're needed without overstepping their superiors or stepping on their colleagues' toes.

Liz Wiseman:

Oh, this is one that I think a lot of people struggle with, which is, hey, I want to lead. I want to step up. I see a need, I'm willing to lead, but what if I end up stepping on people's toes? What if it looks like a land grab? What if it looks like I'm being aggressive? What if it looks like I'm not like being collaborative? There's an art to stepping up in a way that people willingly follow you, which is really, isn't that what true leadership is about? It's about operating a way that people choose to follow you when they don't have to follow you. So first, it's make sure you're doing it in support of the agenda. It's one of the things I noticed that impact players tend to do is they are constantly scanning for what's the agenda here? And by that I mean what's important, what's important now.

I sometimes call that the win. And they're looking at not just what are the objectives for this quarter or this year, it's what are people paying attention to? What are the hot buttons, the hot topics? Where do we need hot tapes? They're like looking for heat. So if you're stepping up and taking the lead on your pet peeve, you're probably going to step on toes. You're probably going to struggle to build followers. But if you see hot issues that are important to your stakeholders, to your bosses, to your end users, and you step up there, other people want to follow you because they know those are opportunities to serve.

Second is get people's permission. Rather than hijack a meeting its, hey, would it be helpful if I guided us through this conversation?

Mark Cole:

Absolutely.

Liz Wiseman:

It looks like this initiative could use a leader. I'd be willing to do it. Would that be a useful service for me to provide? I guess it's similar to how politicians are like, hey, I'd like to lead you, but would you be willing to vote for me? And so it's getting that permission. And then here's the thing, it's not about the art of stepping up. If you don't want to step on toes, be willing to step back.

I think so much of, I've spent most of my career practicing leadership, studying leadership, and you think it's all about the rising up, the stepping up. But the most influential leaders build that influence because they don't always need to be in charge. They're willing to step back. And by stepping back, people trust them. Like, Oh, this isn't someone who's pushing their agenda. This isn't someone who's trying to boss me every chance they get, This is someone who is here to serve, and I will serve them because they're willing to serve me. It's a true influence based way of leading.

Mark Cole:

Well, I love it. And I don't think I've told this story on the podcast, but it definitely reminded me of 2004. So we're talking 18 years ago. I was just on John's team for three and a half years. I joined John on a private flight for the first time ever. And I'd won a sales objective and I was a tele salesperson. And John on that plane, Liz, he asks four questions about numbers on different performing businesses in the organization. And my leader, four people up. So I had three leaders between me and the leader. He couldn't answer the question. Now, he said, I'll get the answer, I'll get the answer. And John seemed to be okay with that and move on. Three weeks later, I was getting ready to go on another flight with John, and I just jotted down answers for the questions that John had asked before, just in case he would ask again.

And right before I got on the plane, I slipped a piece of paper to the leader and I just said, just in case John asked, here's some questions he might be... here's some answers he might be interested in. John in fact, asked the same questions. I watched my leader, four people up, give the answer, give the answer, never give me credit. I got asked the question afterwards, 'cause two people saw me hand that Mark, why didn't you take credit for that? I said, It wasn't about me getting credit, it was about John getting the answers that he needed.

My leader came up to me that I did not have much of a relationship before that. The guy four people up. And he said, How did you know John would want that? And I said, Well, I really didn't. I just was on the plane three weeks ago. And he kind of asked the same questions. My relationship with the president from that day forward took on a different dimension because he treated me differently. What? For two reasons I think, one, I had the answers that the founder wanted, but two, I was willing to let somebody else get the credit. And Liz, what you were saying is sometimes Impact Players have to step back so others can step up, but they still are the one that created the impact.

Liz Wiseman:

Yeah. And it's just a rotating model of leadership. It's like there are times when this person needs to lead, we follow them. There's times when you need to lead, they follow you. And when we follow with the same energy with which we lead, we learn, we trust. It's a service form of leadership. Sometimes we lead, sometimes we follow.

Mark Cole:

Yeah. Well, so I have found most of the time impact leaders have this huge passion, not only to produce, not only to kind of just with intensity work all the time. They really have this ability sometimes to burn out or to have workaholism. So how does an inspiring impact player manage taking on so much responsibility and yet not avoid falling victim to burnout or perhaps working too hard?

Liz Wiseman:

It reminds me of something a naval officer said to me, and he said, we were talking about new people in the organization and rookies in the organization. He said, rookies are all thrust, no vector. And it has just stuck with me, which is they bring this incredible energy, but they get the direction wrong. I think this metaphor explains why there are a lot of people burnt out right now, is that they're working extremely hard, tons of force and energy and effort and thrust. They're just giving everything they've got, but they've got the vector wrong. And it's one of the things we noticed with the impact players is they get the vector right, meaning that they point themselves toward the work of greatest value. And right now we're in this epidemic of burnout. Seems like organizations around the globe are struggling with this. If you're not burnt out yourself, you probably know someone who's burnt out.

People are working hard, they're tired, and market's so easy for us to assume that people burn out because they have too much work. They're working too hard. Everything in my research points to something else. Yeah. Okay. Of course there are times we can burn out because we're just overextended, overwhelmed. But more often than not, people burn out, not because they have too much work, but because they have too little impact, meaning lots of force, lots of energy, but our work's not having impact. I actually think that the antidote to burnout across organizations right now is not to take our foot off the accelerator. It's not to do less. It's to help people achieve maximum impact for the hours that they're spending at work. Get people pointed toward the right problems, make sure that their work has efficacy and impact, and in this remote world of work, help restore some of these chains of impact.

Mark Cole:

Let's go right there. Liz, I want to ask you, how has the shift to remote work or hybrid schedules affected the ability to be a contributor that will evolve me into an impact player?

Liz Wiseman:

Oh, well, boy, it's in a remote environment. It's pretty easy to say, okay, I'm going to rely on just a couple people who I know will always get it done. And it's pretty easy to have a lot of would be impact players go unseen because we just don't see them. It's very easy in a remote environment for people to become disconnected. I'm just doing my job. I'm doing the things that I'm asked to do and to miss this bigger picture. And another sort of insidious thing about the remote environment is it's really hard to see where your work goes. Let's say you teach a webinar, it's over, what happened? Did anything good come of that? Let's say you do an analysis and you send in your report to your boss. What did they do with that analysis? It's so easy to miss that causality of, I did a piece of work, it delivered value to someone, and that created value for the business and had a positive impact and it made a difference.

One of the things I think there's two powerful things that managers can do right now, leaders in their organization is, number one, keep reminding people here's what important, here's what important now, here's the win. And don't assume that because you talked about it two quarters ago, people still remember, just let people know, here are the targets that we need to point ourself toward. Number two, help people see where their work goes. Like, wow, that report you did, we actually used that, we made a decision, we ended up canceling this product line as a result, we doubled our investment over here and we're already seeing growth. Or that just made our decision making process easy and just circle back, loop back to people and let people see how their work is making a difference.

Mark Cole:

Wow. Well, that's so needed right now. And so many of us just kind of get in the cocoon almost. We've stayed in quarantine and not come out even though for health reasons, we don't have to be in quarantine anymore. We've allowed ourself from an impact player perspective to stay in quarantine. And so I love what you just said right there. Okay. I talked about at the beginning how the book and your talk on multipliers impacted John to the point I'll tell you at that point, Liz, when we met you at our event, I've been working alongside John for 18 years, eight of those as his CEO. And I never saw a book and a talk impact John so profoundly that we still use today.

What's it like to be on the other side of minimizers compared to maximizers? So by the way, if you have not picked up Multipliers, I'm not going to tell you to read it first. I don't know, Liz, you're getting ready to tell me whether I need to read it first, but I am going to tell you need to pick up both books. Multipliers will put that link in there. But here's my question. How is impact players a continuation of the conversations you opened up for us with this previous bestseller multipliers?

Liz Wiseman:

Well, first of all, I love, I kind of feel like I should just write books for John. I love, so many people know John as this incredible leader, this incredible teacher. But I think one of the wonderful gifts of my life has been able to see John Maxwell as this incredible, powerful, relentless learner. And I think maybe everyone sees that part of him, but he's the real deal on this.

He's like the Multiplier has changed me and he spent a year trying to figure out how to be the kind of leader that really brought out the best in others. When it comes to this book, I think what was powerful was to see, I mean, it was just amazing for me to see his reaction to that. But here's where I think it's a continuation of this work, and maybe the best way to explain it is a little conversation I had. I was out there teaching multipliers, teaching leaders how to be the kind of leader who brings out the best in others. And I'm up at this workshop in San Francisco and I'm giving my heart and soul to this workshop as we often do. And someone kind of raised his hand and he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I want to be a multiplier leader. I want to bring out the best in others. I don't want to be a diminisher, I don't want to be an accidental. But he said, but you can't multiply zero.

And I'm like, what is he saying? And I'm about, I'm winding up Mark, I'm winding up to give him my spiel about, hey dude, everyone brings intelligence and capability and your job as a leader is to see it, to use it to grow it. But then he keeps talking and it's clear he's talking about something else. He said, wait a minute. As a leader, I need to bring the right mindsets. I need to bring the right kind of behaviors and practices but so do people on my team. They've got to show up with the right headset on the right set of habits and the right set of practices for this to all work. I'm like, Oh yeah, leadership matters, but it's not the only thing that matters. The way that we show up determines whether someone can use us to our fullest, whether someone can help us grow our talent and multiply our capability.

So what does that look like? How do we need to show up if we want to have more than just a job where we're used maybe partially used. If we really want to show up big and grow, what's that mental game look like? And that's when I really began to understand what is the contributor side of this equation?

All of it, of course, with this drive to how do we create environments, where we don't waste any of the talent that we've worked so hard to acquire? And for me, and maybe even taking more of a spiritual lens on this is how do we make sure that we use all of the God-given talent that's available to us? And if you don't mind, my reference is there's the parable of the talents in the Bible and our stewardship back to the Lord about what we do with our talent. And this isn't in the Bible, but if I could put a asterisk and add a thought to it's like I think leaders have the same stewardship as like, when you hire people, you are now a steward of that talent. And when people are working for you, are they using a fraction of that or are you actually multiplying and growing the talent of your team? I want us to have organizations where talent is truly multiplied and grown and people get to make a difference.

Mark Cole:

Well, I think you're helping us. I honestly do. I think you're helping us with, your organization that I love, Liz Wiseman, again, thewisemangroup.com, what you're doing in that organization, what you're doing with your books is literally creating these organizations. I knew I was going to run out of time. I knew that we were going to find ourselves with many more questions to ask. Liz, I'm going to come back to you in just a moment, but let me challenge each of you listening, those of you watching today, I want to challenge you to do more than listen to Liz and this podcast that we try to add value to you, go and make yourself better so you can multiply value to others.

We'll put out there where you can get this book, You can find it at any e-tailer, retailer that you prefer. You can find it and find other ways at thewisemangroup.com to help you. But here's what I want you to do. I want you to not only think of yourself here, be an impact player in that you bring somebody along in this discussion with you. Make sure that you have people beside you. Create a group study how you can become an impact player. Liz, before we sign off, any last things you would tell us just from the book or ways that we truly can become significant in the way we impact those around us?

Liz Wiseman:

Well, I think it probably starts with paying attention to what's important to people around you. And I think we increase our impact when we find out what's important in an organization to our boss, to our customers, to those we serve, and then we make it important to us. And when we do that simple thing of saying, okay, maybe that's not my passion, my priority, but I will make it important to me. We put ourselves on this path of impact. And I don't know if I could add one more thought. It would be to leaders, which is, I know it's easy to get in this mode, which seems like people are doing the minimum. Everything I've learned in my research, everything points to there is human need to contribute at our fullest. That people all over the world and in your organization, if you're listening, are coming to work wanting to contribute in big ways and wanting to make a difference and wanting to have impact. And I think with the right kind of leadership, people will surprise us on the upside.

Mark Cole:

Well, one of my favorite things of our podcast family is how you lean in, you engage, you give us feedback, you give us, you offer us ways to get better. And today, I just want to highlight as I like to do, I want to highlight one of our podcast families. It's Rachel, Rachel, Listen to the 10 tools for gaining a new perspective. We'll put that episode in the show notes if that sounds something that is of interest to you.

But this is what Rachel said after that, she said, "Wow, what a great insight. Indeed. Success is not a destination, but a journey. A process that has to be constantly checked on, a person's effectiveness requires great determination and a super attitude for personal development." Rachel, I think you've got it right. I think you're an impact player. Rachel, I think you're ready to go pick up Liz's book, Impact Players. And by the way, I already know comments that'll be coming in that we'll highlight next week and the next week and the next week is going to be how this book, for those of you listening, you're missing out because I'm holding up the Impact Players book by Liz Wiseman. You're going to comment on our podcast and give us feedback of how this book has impacted you. And hey, that's what it's all about. Because the world wants powerful positive leaders that know how to create powerful positive change because everyone deserves to be led well.